I my gosh it got another vote!

No love for this request.  Any suggestions for managing large (master planned communities, resorts with multiple phases) projects in LAndFX, while keeping your ref-notes and details coordinated, but still allowing you to have separate sheet legends for each project, and track details and their placement in plan sets separately?

 

I'm just unclear what this notional feature is to do.

You want the same project, to be able to access two different sheet legends of details (which may also vary), but somehow update the same master project data?  Or...  yeah, sorry, I'm just not wrapping my head around a way to frame this.

 

--J

Hi J.  I don't blame you... I can't wrap my head around it either.  I know what I want need (or... want), but explaining the how...  So rather than tell you how it should be done... here is a typical example.

Case Study:

Master Planned community with 15 parcels.  Depending on client preference, the infrastructure is a separate set, or combined with adjacent parcels.  For this example, lets do a separate infra plan set.  At its simplest, this 'single project' will have 16 plan sets.  (Again, maybe more based on client preferences... and client preferences are usually driven by cost allocations with joint developers.)  However, these plan sets have a lot of overlap of information, and elements in common.  If a note/finish/detail changes on one plan set, we would like it to update across all plan sets.

Infrastructure Landscape Plans

• Infra Planting
• Infra Irrigation
• Infra Hardscape / amenities / monuments / structures / etc
• Perimeter Wall Plans (Sometimes these are an independent plan set)

Parcel 1 Landscape Plans

• Parcel Planting
• Parcel Irrigation
• Parcel Hardscape/Amenities
• Parcel Wall Plans

Parcel 2.... etc

 

Below are examples of overlapping items found in each parcel

• 6' CMU wall with a splitface cap.  In our ref-notes section, we have a walls division, and ref-note W-101
• Integral color concrete sidewalk with a grace topcast finish #05.  This is ref-note P104
• A 'detail' for a CIP seatwall with a 4" reveal at the bottom.  Integral color, etc.
• A palm tree (Canary island date palm) and associated symbol

Below are examples of items that may be found in one or two parcels, but not all parcels

• Screen wall - 7' splitface CMU.  W-108
• Specialty Pavers - P102
• Playground detail(s).  Noted with SF-115, SF-112, SF-106 depending on the model.

How we are currently managing large projects:

We create (or start) with a template, and enter what we know will be in the project.

• 15 or 20 paving ref-notes
• 10+ wall ref-notes
• Plants symbols, etc...

Then we create a separate LandFX project for each of the plan sets.  We use our company project numbers, but add a parcel designation at the end.

• 123456-P01
• 123456-P02
• etc...

At this point, although they started with the same template, they are no longer synced.

So client come along and says...

• Canary Island palms to expensive, use med date palms
• I want pavers instead of integral color concrete
• Use benches instead of seatwalls...

We now need to go into each of the 16 separate projects, and update the common notes, symbols, plant selection...  Every.  Time.  Something. Common.  Changes.  16 separate updates.

Why not keep all the parcels/infra in one LandFX project?

Several reasons:

• gaps in ref-notes (picky clients and picky city reviewers, and suspicious contractors, don't like gaps in keynotes).  If I use the nifty "renumber keynotes", well... it changes ALL the parcels.  So then we are running a renumber each and every time we plot a new parcel.
• Only one sheet index - I can set up the sheet index for Parcel 1, but i am out of luck for the remaining parcels.
• Details links to sheets and refnotes - Parcel 1 is the largest.  It has ALL the details.  Those details get linked to the refnotes and a page.  Parcel 2 only uses half the details.  And those details are already linked with a different sheet in another file.

 

This is hard

I get it... There is probably a very complex way to code this in LandFX, and I will probably be the only one to thank you.  So if you have any other ideas I would love to hear them.  We have tried a few.

• Creating a 'standard detail' set that is universal for all the parcels.  I love this personally, but some clients/contractors do not.  They want a 'single/complete' plan set for each parcel that has all the information needed so they can hand it to a person and say 'build this' without having to look up other supporting documents.

Anyways...

Have a great night,

Tim

 

 

And while we are on it... as you can see, based on the above, we end up with a lot of LandFX projects.  Ordered by project number.  Could you have the Project list set up to sort by Number OR Name, by clicking on the column headers?  I will put in a formal request :)

Thanks,

Tim

Tim,

 

Thanks for all that detail. 

Yeah, it seems what you need is the ability to Clone a project, as say Project.B and Project.C, for all 16. Then, any time you make an edit in one, it could ask if you want it to apply to all. Or you could go to the Master project, and any edit there would carry down to all. 

But that still doesn’t broach how we clone the details, which is a whole other puzzle. 

 

—J

Sooo.... are you saying you will consider it?  :)

 

I can try to come up with approaches and ideas,  but dont want to waste your time if its way too difficult.

 

One idea that popped into my head after reading your response to my other post regarding project hierarchy... what if projects had sub projects?  Refnotes and details are organized at the master project level, but sheet indexes, sheet links to details, and refnote numbers are set at the subproject level.

 

Thanks!

Tim

It certainly is under consideration.

It relates to other requests, to peel off entire copies of a project at different submittal phases.  In short, they want to make a complete copy of the project, including all details, so that they can continue on with the next phase, while isolating the plan set used for a submittal (and any work required by the agency).

I don't think it's something that can done this year, so you have plenty of time to mock it up.  The project hierarchy is scheduled for this year, so maybe after that goes live, we can see how this would best fit.

 

--J

I'm happy I finally found this thread.  I am currently racking my brain trying to figure out the same problem.  We also have projects that require this same exact scenario. I just started at the firm and got them on LFX and have been teaching everyone the program, but have never had projects before that required this type of inclusion coupled with equal separation.  Tim, I feel your pain on this one.  I have been using LFX since 2006-2007 and feel like I have a good grasp on how everything works, but this one is giving me a headache.

gaining traction.  Woot!

Hey Timothy,

Did you ever figure out a process for this? Just found this post and I've been racking my brain trying to figure out how to phase a project where the majority of plants, hardscape, details are the same but there could be slight differences.

Thanks.

-Clay

Hi Clay, Short answer is NO, we have not found a built in solution.

Long answer:
First, Its been a while since I have been in here! This post is a few years old. Since then, career keeps moving, and I find myself doing MUCH less cadd, and more people stuff, and rely on my excellent team to handle the cadd. But once a cadd monkey, always a cadd monkey. So I am saying I am not a quick but still know enough to get in trouble.

Second, When did LFX add the ability to sort by project name instead of number? Outstanding!

Third, even though I am not cadd'n as much, this is still important to me from a productivity and quality control issue. So I wanted to take a minute and contribute. And, I am in a boring zoom meeting at the moment. We continue to do the multiple projects route for each phase. See image below. I highlighted an example project, but you can see most of the others in this snapshot also have phases. (For context, we have about 50 active master projects in LFX, and 95% of our projects have multiple phases/parcels, which results in about 400 actual LFX projects.) In the highlighted example, we usually have a 'master project' that we do master plan / prelim drawings in (In this case 14-0360502). We set up all our ref notes and plant list, make it a template, then clone that into the separate phases / parcels. Obviously, from that point forward, they are no longer "linked", so any fundamental change needs to be coordinated between the separate projects.




What I would like to see is something similar to the hierarchy in the image below. Personally, I could live without the 'stage' level, and just have a phase level. The point is, the MASTER level would house all the schedules and details, and the Phase level would house the sheet manager, sheet references for details, and the numbering for the ref notes. Example: "San Tan Gateway" has 50 total ref notes and 50 total plants and 50 master details. Parcel 20 uses 30 of the 50 ref notes. Parcel 22 also uses 30 of the 50, some overlap, but some don't. Same with the plants and details. In the respective phases, the ref notes would be numbered in order without gaps. (K1, K2, K3... SF1, SF2, SF3...). The ref notes themselves would be consistent, but numbering unique.




It would be similar to the 'organization' tab on the Project List dialog. Currently, this is only being used for the detail library... but if it housed the ref note library, plant library, etc.... then each phase could reference those

Like I said, long answer. But more of a sales pitch to the LFX team. I hope to see a feature like this in the (near) future.

LFX peeps - missed you all at ASLA this year! Hope all is well with you, and maybe see you next year!

Thanks!
Tim

Thanks for the update. I did notice that the original post was a couple years old but thought maybe a solution had been found.

Amanda or anyone else at LFX... any love you can show this topic?

Thanks,
Tim

Hi Jeremiah,

Thanks for the reply. I am going to accept this as the answer since this has been posted for a long time, and it doesn't sound like its on the roadmap. And I am also doing a poor job of explaining. So we will keep doing it manually, which is similar to what you proposed (we make a template of the master project and use that for each phase). Keeping the details consistent between projects works fine by using the same library. But what is missing is keeping all the scheduling tools consistent between phases of a project. (Materials selections, plant selection and sizes, irrigation equipment, etc)

Simple example: If I have a project with 5 phases, and at the start, we are using an Ackerstone paver and a Landscape Forms Bench. Then a change is made to use a Belgard paver and a Wabash Valley Bench. I now need to go into 5 projects to make those change in the ref notes to keep the phases consistent.

Second simple example: Same project, but now client wants to add doggie waste stations. We missed that at the project set up, so now I need to go into 5 projects, and add the same refnote.

It happens more than I like to admit... in fact just in the past few weeks in a meeting with a client. Client asked us to change the irrigation controller for the project. Designer changed it in that phase (a stand alone LFX project), but forgot to change it on the other phases. Follow up meeting with the client, and he is asking me why we are still using the old controller. Designer be all like "Oh, I changed it in Parcel 3! This is Parcel 4... I didn't go into that separate project blah blah blah..." Client doesn't care about that... Point being, a redline/revision on one phase needs to be carried through on all the phases.

What I was trying to propose with the 'subprojects' is that just like the detail library (change a detail, and its reflected across all instances of that detail), the refnotes, the plant list, the irrigation schedule, the zoning/lighting/anything else scheduling tools are all pulling from the same "list". IF I change ackerstone to belgard, its reflected across all 'subprojects' using that master project refnote list. What the subprojects do is set the actual ref note number. Belgard paver is P105 in phase 3, but P106 in Phase 4 because phase 4 has more paving materials than phase 3, and now I don't have gaps in my numbering. (We get redline comments from our city reviewers if there are gaps in the keynote numbers) And the detail references on the schedule refer to the page the detail is on for that phase. In my second example above, the doggie waste station would be added to the master refnote list, but may/may not be used in the various phases of the project, so the number is assigned at the subproject level.

Anyways, I recognize this is a huge lift on your end, and this is probably a fringe case for the majority of your users. It just happens to be that one of our core markets is master planned communities... one project with multiple parcels. So there is a ton of duplication we need to maintain.

Happy new year!
Tim

Tim,

Let's step back for a second. What are you actually trying to accomplish? If it is merely RefNote numbering, that is already handled by the "Renumber" option when running the schedule. That will allow you to use a single project for all phases, and each time you run the schedule simply renumber to remove gaps.
Secondly, for Irrigation, I'm not hearing any reason there needs to be 5 different projects for the different phases. So that too should be an easier fix, just use one project for the irrigation for all phases. Unless I'm missing something there?
But overall, just need to understand what is to be accomplished by the separating of the data. I was assuming that notes and details were needing to change independently. We have previously received wishlist requests, that as each phase is approved, it needs to be archived exactly as it is, to match the plan in case of plan changes. That was the other firm's struggle, in that they would be working on Phase 5, when suddenly a plan change to Phase 1 comes in, so they need to switch to editing that one but have it not affect any other phase.
But I would say that overall I need to understand more of what needs to change versus staying the same across all phases. If for instance there was a notional way to set up a multi-project group, I'm struggling with whether there needs to be a checkbox for certain edits to affect all projects in the group, or if it is simply automatic, or what.

--J

Thanks for all the feedback. The more I think about it the more I just end up in a mental loop.

I think what I would find most helpful would be a master Ref. Note list that when modified would change all instances in all phases. But have the numbering of the reference notes done on a individual project basis. But once a project is approved for construction it should be difficult to make a change to the approved plans. So a master list of this sort would probably end up causing problems. Unless there is a way to specify which subprojects get updated. Once a project is approved it could be locked from updating.

I think the best option is to create a master project with all notes and plants then import them into each individual project. If a new note is needed it should be added to the Master Project them imported into the individual phase.

An issue that we would run into with doing the Backup/Restore method is that we often will be working on multiple phases simultaneously. So phase 1 won't even have all the notes in it prior to starting phase 2.

I do like the idea of archiving a project every time a submittal is made. I think I will suggest that to everyone in my office.

Thanks Jeremiah,

I am not sure using a single project would work, as the details would be on different sheets for each phase (each plan set), and the sheet index in the project manager would contain sheets from all phases, and some with duplicate names/numbers. Also, the renumber tool works great within a single project, but we would have to use it each time we updated a schedule going from phase to phase. Let me know if you have another ideas on that topic because it would be a timesaver if it would work.

Regarding your comment on the other firm wanting to keep their phases separate - this does make it tricky, as there are revisions that are unique to a phase, and revisions that should reflect across all phases. As a general rule, I would think design elements may vary, but materials should be consistent between phases. But YMMV.

What I think we want is the ability to dynamically share refnotes, plant legends, irrigation schedules, etc, between phases of a project. But also need to maintain unique numbering and sheet references for details. Below is an actual project form our LFX. Simple, three phase project. Attached PDF lists the ref notes for each phase. As you can see, there is quite a bit of overlap, but some unique. And the numbers do not line up. I have highlighted some inconsistencies that exist in our data. Most are minor (just a change in phrasing). But some are actual changes in material (stone veneer to stucco wall, different planter). We try to keep a simple keynote list that goes on each sheet. Then print a detailed schedule at the front that has all the other information (vendor, color, whether we want a mock up or shop drawing, etc) This project is in progress, so a change made to one phase needs to reflect in another phase. Having a single project, and renumbering works great for the ref notes, but if I insert the same detail on another sheet, it screws up the sheet reference for all phases.


TEMPLATE DETAIL FOLDER
ROYAL OAKS - ALL PHASES P-RE-ROY-

NUMBER PROJECT DETAIL FOLDER
327701 ROYAL OAKS P-RE-ROY-
0327701_PH1 ROYAL OAKS - PHASE 1 P-RE-ROY1-
0327701_PH2 ROYAL OAKS - PHASE 2 P-RE-ROY2-
0327701_PH3 ROYAL OAKS - PHASE 3 P-RE-ROY3-

The same would apply for plant list. Say we have already forked our master project into three separate projects. And the client wants to change the turf variety, or wants to add a specific plant. With three projects, that is three changes. With a master project, we could add the plant to one list, and it shows up as available to use in all the phases (whether it gets used or not, its available).

Am I explaining correctly?

Thanks,
Tim

Tim,

Definitely helps.
As I'm understanding it, the ideal would be as follows:
- Master project is used to create multiple Phase projects
- Any edits to the Master project are replicated to all Phase projects
- Any edits to a Phase project are limited there
- Phase project would inherit the same detail sheet and number of the master, but could then be adjusted
Edits to the master project are the trickiest - features like renumbering RefNotes and even just choosing the next available number for a note would need to include all Phase projects.
It would be very easy to *create* the multiple phase projects, but then there is the tricky step of needing to open a copy of all dwg's and reassign to the new phase project - perhaps capability could be added to
BatchMan to switch a folder of dwg's to a different project.
I still think Irrigation would be best served by a single separate project, as the system cannot process a change to equipment as easily as it can for RefNotes.
Planting is also a bit tricky, in that it is not engineered to process changes made to a master project. But it would be a welcome addition, and would aid in using a single project across multiple dwg's.
Lastly, there is the issue of separate details entirely - for the case where the details themselves require unique edits per phase.

So, something kinda like that?

--J

Hi Jeremiah,

Thanks for the reponse. Yes, I think you are understanding what I am trying to describe. One comments:

• I would be OK with changes in one phase reflecting across all phases. If the change is unique to a phase, I would be OK creating a new unique key note. Or maybe there is a radio button that says "change only for this phase", which effectively creates a new unique ref note in the master list.
  

Just to make sure I am getting the finer details across... This is a long response, but its mainly examples in table form. And apologies... I couldn't find a table format tool. If I were to break down the various parts:

Refnotes
The master project contains the list of all refnotes. By that I mean they have the text for the note, and all the associated fields. They are even assigned to a category if appropriate (K-Rock, W-walls, etc) They just dont have a number assigned.
Example:
Master
# / Keynote / Color / Comment / Detail
TBD / Screen Wall / Tan / Stucco / Library Detail 1
TBD / View Fence / Bronze / Powdercoat / Library Detail 2
TBD / Dog Fence / Bronze / Powdercoat / Library Detail 3

Phase 1 has a screen wall and view fence, so its refnotes schedule would look like
# / Keynote / Color / Comment / Detail
W101 / Screen Wall / Tan / Stucco / 4/L105
W102 / View Fence / Bronze / Powdercoat / 5/L105

Phase 2 has a view fence and dog fence, so its refnotes schedule would look like
# / Keynote / Color / Comment / Detail
W101 / View Fence / Bronze / Powdercoat / 1/L103
W102 / Dog Fence / Bronze / Powdercoat / 2/L103

If I want to change the color of the view fence to be Grey and Painted, I could change it in either phase, and it would reflect across all phases. (I am editing the text/fields at the master level, but the number assignment, and detail page reference are happening at the phase level.
Master
# / Keynote / Color / Comment / Detail
TBD / Screen Wall / Tan / Stucco / Library Detail 1
TBD / View Fence / Grey / Paint / Library Detail 2
TBD / Dog Fence / Grey / Paint / Library Detail 3

Phase 1
# / Keynote / Color / Comment / Detail
W101 / Screen Wall / Tan / Stucco / 4/L105
W102 / View Fence / Grey / Paint / 5/L105

Phase 2
# / Keynote / Color / Comment / Detail
W101 / View Fence / Grey / Paint / 1/L103
W102 / Dog Fence / Grey / Paint / 2/L103


Say I have a third phase, and for the screen wall, I want it to be ground face CMU. But only for that phase. I would create a new keynote in Phase 3, and it would sync with the master list, but just not be used in the other phases. (It would show up in the other phases as 'unnassigned')

Master
# / Keynote / Color / Comment / Detail
TBD / Screen Wall / Tan / Stucco / Library Detail 1
TBD / View Fence / Grey / Paint / Library Detail 2
TBD / Dog Fence / Grey / Paint / Library Detail 3
TBD / CMU wall / Pebble / Groundface / Library Detail 4

Phase 1
# / Keynote / Color / Comment / Detail
W101 / Screen Wall / Tan / Stucco / 4/L105
W102 / View Fence / Grey / Paint / 5/L105

Phase 2
# / Keynote / Color / Comment / Detail
W101 / View Fence / Grey / Paint / 1/L103
W102 / Dog Fence / Bronze / Powdercoat / 2/L103

Phase 3
# / Keynote / Color / Comment / Detail
W101 / View Fence / Grey / Paint / 1/L103
W102 / Dog Fence / Bronze / Powdercoat / 2/L103
W103 / CMU wall / Pebble / Groundface 3/L103

In writing this out, it might be helpful to know which keynote are being used in across phases. For example:
Master
# / Keynote / Color / Comment / Detail / Used?
TBD / Screen Wall / Tan / Stucco / Library Detail 1 / Ph1
TBD / View Fence / Grey / Paint / Library Detail 2 / Ph1, Ph2, Ph3
TBD / Dog Fence / Grey / Paint / Library Detail 3 / Ph2, Ph3
TBD / CMU wall / Pebble / Groundface / Library Detail 4 / Ph3
TBD / Brick Wall / Red / Pretty / Library Detail 5 / Not Used

It would be a reminder that you are editing something that will impact other phases, so you might rather create a new keynote.

Obviously, any changes to the library details are reflected across all phases. Some details may be phase specific, but they are all in the library available for all phases. I think the details library already kinda works this way... I can point multiple projects to the same detail folder and reuse details, and they get assigned the page reference at the project level.

You idea of using one projects for all phases, then 'renumbering' the keynotes would work for the number part, but correct me if I am wrong, once I inserted "Library Detail 2" onto 1/L103 in phase 2, it would also change the sheet reference in phase 1 and 3. Also, since we are working on the phases simultaneously, it would mean running renumber every time. That might be OK, just not sure what downstream impacts it would have.

Planting
Similar to the planting schedule. And this one seems easier, since I can have hundreds of plants in my project (if I had them in the original template), but only use a handful of plants. There are two key parts to my request... (1) If I add a new plant to one phase, it would show up as available in all the phases. and (2) if a change is made to a specific plant in the list, it would reflect across all phases.

Example:
Master
Plant / Size
Palo Verde / 36" box
Live Oak / 36" Box
Sephora / 24" Box
Pistache / 24" box
and lots more...

Not all the plants are used across each phase, so individual phase schedules may look like
Phase 1
Plant / Size
Palo Verde / 36" box
Live Oak / 36" Box
Pistache / 24" box

Phase 2
Plant / Size
Palo Verde / 36" box
Live Oak / 36" Box
Sephora / 24" Box
Pistache / 24" box

Phase 3
Plant / Size
Live Oak / 36" Box
Sephora / 24" Box
Pistache / 24" box

Now say client wants to add Cascalote as an accent tree to some phases, and wants to change all the Pistache Trees to Elms across all phases, and change the Sephora in Phase 2 only to Sweet Acacia. And they do not want any 36" box trees. All 24" box. I am oversimplifying the change to Elm. But the point being, a change to the specific plant is reflected across all phases. Or maybe a better way of looking at it, is each phase is looking at the same master plant list. If a change or addition is made in one phase, its to the master list that all phases are looking at.

Master
Plant / Size
Palo Verde / 24" box <--- editing this plant size info is reflected across all projects. They keep the same symbol.
Live Oak / 24" Box <--- editing this plant size info is reflected across all projects. They keep the same symbol.
Sephora / 24" Box <--- no change
Sweet Acacia / 24" Box <--- New Entry for Phase 2
Cascalote / 24" Box <--- New Entry for all phases
Elm / 24" box <--- This one is trickier... to avoid having to add a new plant to the list, then going into each phase and using the replace tool, and it also having a new symbol, I am thinking you could (1) just edit the plant name and plant code, OR (2) add a new plant to the list (Elm), then open the plant editor for Pistache, and use the change plant button. But I am not sure how that works. The goal would be to change the Pistache to Elm, keep the symbol, keep them planted where they are, just change the schedule.
and lots more...

Phase 1
Plant / Size
Palo Verde / 24" box
Live Oak / 24" Box
Elm / 24" Box
Cascalote / 24" Box

Phase 2
Plant / Size
Palo Verde / 24" box
Live Oak / 24" Box
Sweet acacia / 24" Box
Elm / 24" Box
Cascalote / 24" Box

Phase 3
Plant / Size
Live Oak / 36" Box
Sephora / 24" Box
Elm / 24" Box


Irrigation
The simplest example would be changing an irrigation component, and having it reflect across all phases. Say the original design used a Hunter Controller, and Hunter MP Rotators in the turf. Client wants to switch to Rainbird. I change it once in a phase, and its reflected across all phases. Yes, there may be some redesign to adjust for spray coverage/radius.

Other scheduling tools
Same concept would apply to concept plant manager, concept graphics, zoning graphics, lighting manager.

Thank you again for your responses and ideas.
Tim